使用者討論:SElephant/Container2005Q4
Country and State article University links
Hi, I just thought I would put one or two major universities under each country and American state article on zh wikipedia; I am not thinking to put more than a representation; 'each university' would not be listed. Since there are so many travelogues, sets of pictures, redundant government websites, etc under these articles already, or will be in the future, I see no reason not to continue putting one or two major university links under each geopolitical article. Does this sound ok to you? --McTrixie 18:07 2005年11月8日 (UTC)
- Sorry but I can't agree with your opinion. It's not really a good excuse to illeagally dump garbage somewhere just because there was already garbage or there might be some more later. The "External Links" should be treated as an internet version of references, instead of links someone thinks funny and added without meaning. Those links added should be relevant to the main topic, and be helpful to readers of the article if they want something more than the introduction on Wikipedia. Or, they can be treated as a reference if someone wants to doublecheck the truth or false stated in the article. I noticed that you added many links from a website www.xzqh.org on some country articles, and those links are relevant because their main topics are about those countries exactly. However, I can't figure out any meaning if we put couple of university links in a country article. If you said you do this just because it's no harm, then why you choose School A and School B, but not School C or School D, or even let School E,F,G,H......to School Z all showed on the same page? Or, why you choose universities instead of elementary schools or some fastfood chains or book stores? We can avoid ambiguity by narrowing our selection to those links really relevant to main topics. I didn't find many travelouges on Chinese wikipedia, but government websites should be considered redundant. Actually I think they're quite essential, or at least, we should include the websites of certain country's president office, main legislation and jurisdiction bodies, the central Executive unit, and foreign affair office (because it contains introduction of the country most of the time).--泅水大象 訐譙☎ 05:43 2005年11月9日 (UTC)
- One would have to point out this garbage. I need some help here. --McTrixie 10:04 2005年11月9日 (UTC)
- Sorry I missed a very important word in my previous post. Acutally I mean government websites should "NOT" be considered redundant. About the garbage topic, it's only an example to express what I think, please forgive me if you think it rude. What I mean is actually "We should not keep an article massy just because it's massy. We should improve it instead."--泅水大象 訐譙☎ 12:32 2005年11月9日 (UTC)
- Sorry, I don't know what to say. My Chinese isn't good enough to explain; it should be. Because I can't explain it in real words, I will have to be stereotypical, and I will have to explain that I spent a lot of time with a friend of mine, Korean American, from a big medical family; the stereotype is that college is important to Asians. That is my experience. She told me "those links are good. You really know what Asian parents like". I am sorry for the stereotype; I don't know how to write it in Chinese. Sorry. The weird thing is, that here in America, and compared to 'European Americans', its a little true. It's a really good thing, so its not a problem.
- I figure if someone is reading the Brasil article, one might feel like actually going there and studying! And there is the link: University of Sao Paolo, 'the best university in Brasil'. I went to the site and read the Portuguese and put it right in. I actually had a problem in the Nigerian page. There was a big university, and a site, that was actually a con! I was quite scared at that point, and decided not to put any links for Nigeria, even though the Financial College was probably legit. If someone was reading Wikipedia and clicked into that con site, I would actually really be in trouble. So, I check. For the American states, its very easy for me to find the right one because I am American. For Massachusetts, I just picked UMass and Harvard. It was very easy. There doesn't have to be a list, the "Education in Massachusetts" page will have all the links in a list. For foreign countries I just check and see. If someone is actually interested in looking at a college site, there doesn't have to be more than one or two. They will just click to other universities.
- Colleges and universities can provide the most important part of a city. I live near Boston, and Harvard is the entire city of Cambridge, which is part of Boston, although it is a separate town. It would be unthinkable to write the Boston page without a link to Harvard; its the most important and famous thing in that town. I haven't checked, but isn't Bei Da a link on the Beijing page on Chinese Wikipedia? I think I added it to the Beijing page on English Wikipedia.
- The same is true for the big state schools in places like Iowa, Kansas and Texas. The college towns provide the center for the state. College towns like Austin, Texas; Lawrence, Kansas; and the University of Iowa and Grinnell, Iowa are the places that the people love the most.
- Since everything we have here on the computer and internet comes from college, we have to support our colleges and universities by making them accessible to the readers. And, aren't most readers of the Wikipedia very interested in college?
- Finally, and I am sure you won't argue with this, the people at the colleges, like at the University of Khartoum in Sudan, really really really want their college to be in the page. Think of that. Without colleges, most cities would be really sleazy places. Thank you. --McTrixie 13:01 2005年11月9日 (UTC)
- Langauage is just a tool for communication, so it's okay with me to type English as long as you can understand what I mean. I know you start your thinking from a practical point of view, often thinking "maybe I can put some more things in if someone may be interested in...". It's not a bad thinking, but still, I disagree most of your reasons if we're talking about an encyclopedia like Wikipedia.
- The main concern of Chinese Wikipedia should be set upon all the population who can read Chinese globally, not constrained to some Asian parents who think universities are the most important thing above all. I asked my parents (of course, they are both Asians) what is the most important thing for them if we're talking about a foreign country or city just a few minutes ago. Their answers are like "where can I find a good but cheap hotel there?" "is there anything worthy for a visit?" "how to get there from Taiwan? which airline we should take?" or simply "what is it?". They don't really pay attention to any schools at all, but I think they're another kind of stereotype and why didn't you think about to furfill their need? (actually I think it is the common sense people might think while asked about a foreign city or country, no matter they are Asian parents or not). Also, although last answer "what is it?" might sounds stupid, it's actually what an encyclopedia article should answer. Please always bare this in mind, that an encyclopedia is not an education resource web, a school ranking guide, or a proper place for someone who wants to promote his school on internet. If they want to do it, please go to a proper place or just put a website on net. Don't worry if someone needs it can't get in, because his Google god will guide his way!
- In your arguement, you listed many American schools which mostly situated in countryside and formed as part of the cityscape. You said it is proper to put an EXTERNAL LINK in each of these campus cities' articles because schools are essential for those cities. I think you missed two major points by saying this.
- First, you over-generalized some special cases into common practice. I think, among millions of cities and towns around the world, these "campus cities" are just a small fraction. Take my hometown Taipei for example, it's the capital of Taiwan, and is the city where National Taiwan University located, which is the best (according to ranking of joint entry exam) and the biggest (according to the land area) university in town. Although NTU is part of something you must mention if we're talking about education resource of Taipei. But, Taipei won't be nothing if we erase this part from the article, it's still a great city with lot of important things to talk about, like its geography, demography, and history. The same thing applied if you draw out NYU from New York City, or omit London Business School from London. Schools are just a small part for most of the cities in the world. Not so big deal as you think!
- Second, if you really think those informations about universities are very important and want to have them on Wikipedia. What you should do is not ONLY put an EXTERNAL LINK about the school in a country or city article. The correct Wiki way to do this is adding an article about the school itself, writing some introduction in the article, putting your beloved EXTERNAL LINK on that page for people to reference. Finally, putting an INTERNAL LINK in the city page for someone to follow. If you added those external links by this way, I'll say thank you and clap hands for you. Please consider to adjust your current method to co-op with the basic rules here, because I can feel that you're really want to help but help in a not-so-welcome way so far.
- If someone in Sudan REALLY REALLY REALLY wants us to know the existance of his school, he should love to fill up this link 喀土穆大學 for us so everybody can see it here. Shouldn't he?--泅水大象 訐譙☎ 16:15 2005年11月9日 (UTC)
Firstly, you over-generalized some special cases into common practice. I think, among millions of cities and towns around the world, these "campus cities" are just a small fraction.
- This paragraph is from a message you posted on User:McTrixie. As far as this statement is concerned, I am not sure that this is statistically true. In some parts of the world, such as the Amazon rainforest and in parts of Africa, it might be possible to be somewhere where there is no school nearby. But if one considers the eastern seaboard of North America, or Korea, one knows that, contrary to there being "just a small fraction" of "campus cities", it is actually impossible to be somewhere where there is not a college or university. Did you miss this obvious point in your reasoning when you wrote this paragraph? --McTrixie 10:51 2005年12月3日 (UTC)
The main concern of Chinese Wikipedia should be set upon all the population who can read Chinese globally, not constrained to some Asian parents who think universities are the most important thing above all. I asked my parents (of course, they are both Asians) what is the most important thing for them if we're talking about a foreign country or city just a few minutes ago. Their answers are like "where can I find a good but cheap hotel there?" "is there anything worthy for a visit?" "how to get there from Taiwan? which airline we should take?" or simply "what is it?".
- This one doesn't make sense either. Did you even go to school? And if you didn't, do you have a job? With machine tools and accounting software? Like from MIT or accounting school? So you have something to do during the day, or so your paycheck doesn't get screwed up? --McTrixie 10:59 2005年12月3日 (UTC)
Take my hometown Taipei for example, it's the capital of Taiwan, and is the city where National Taiwan University located, which is the best (according to ranking of joint entry exam) and the biggest (according to the land area) university in town. Although NTU is part of something you must mention if we're talking about education resource of Taipei. But, Taipei won't be nothing if we erase this part from the article, it's still a great city with lot of important things to talk about, like its geography, demography, and history. The same thing applied if you draw out NYU from New York City, or omit London Business School from London. Schools are just a small part for most of the cities in the world. Not so big deal as you think!
- And what is this? I am sure Taipei would be nothing if NTU were erased from the city, as you stated so very clearly. Where do you think the Taiwan balance of trade surplus comes from? Cheap hotels and sightseeing spots? I suggest you take a long hard look at en:hard disk and en:fiber optics so you know where your money comes from, Mr. Elephant! --McTrixie 11:06 2005年12月3日 (UTC)
- 基本上老兄您的邏輯已經爛到一個境界，以至於我已懶得再打一大篇英文去想辦法說服這樣一個說話顛三倒四的人。我只能說，教育很重要，但教育不是一個城市的全部，您之所以聽不懂我在解釋些什麼，可能是因為您的教育程度比我低的緣故，因此我不會太過與您計較，畢竟我佔了高教育水準的優勢，應該得理讓人就是了。以上！--泅水大象 訐譙☎ 16:18 2005年12月3日 (UTC)
阿聯 v.s. 大公國
「阿联酋」為「阿拉伯联合酋长国」之簡稱，只有大陸方面這樣用。臺灣外交部網站云：「阿拉伯聯合大公國，簡稱大公國。」
既然兩地簡稱不一樣，所以我也設定轉換。但臺灣其實很少單用「大公國」，加上轉換「大公國」可能造成錯誤，所以設定單向的「阿联酋」→「大公國」，希望您能諒解。Koika 17:33 2005年11月9日 (UTC)
- 我知道你的用意，但是全面轉換『阿联酋=>大公國』並不是個好主意，因為事實上，世界上並不止存在一個大公國（所以我覺得外交部網站上的那個簡寫，有點錯誤），例如列支敦斯登就是另一個現存的範例，更不用說在很多討論歐洲中世紀歷史的條目中，會經常出現這名詞。今天是因為阿拉伯聯合大公國的條目主旨是討論UAE這國家，所以把阿联酋轉換成大公國我們也不會誤解此大公國是在指哪個大公國。但假如今天我們跳離這條目，是在隨便一個別的條目中看到「大公國」這三個字，此時就很混淆，到底這名字是在指UAE這國家？還是列支敦斯登？還是聖馬利諾？還是......因此我建議要的話還是改為『阿联酋=>阿拉伯聯合大公國』會比較不容易造成混淆！--泅水大象 訐譙☎ 17:54 2005年11月9日 (UTC)
關於MMORPG
Wikipedia:命名常規中註明：除非原文比中文翻譯在中文中更加常用，請使用中文來對條目進行命名 經過本人在Google搜尋引擎搜尋後，得到以下結果：
- 關於MMORPG大約有443,000 頁簡體中文 和 繁體中文搜尋結果
- 關於大型多人在線角色扮演遊戲大約有115,000 頁簡體中文 和 繁體中文搜尋結果
- 關於大型多人線上角色扮演遊戲大約有969 頁簡體中文 和 繁體中文搜尋結果
很明顯，MMORPG比其中文翻譯更常用，也被更多人接受。而且，MMORPG的中文名在中國才比較常用，但在其他地方，如香港，則幾乎不會。要知這是中文維基，不是中國維基，故此本人認為以MMORPG作條目名比其中文名更適合。而且以MMORPG作條目名更能專重原作者。
- 感謝您的迅速回應，不過建議在留話時記得加上簽名，以方便回覆！關於條目的譯名問題，我想您可能有點誤會規則說明中那條但書的使用機會，那條但書主要是用在沒有適切且廣為接受的中文譯名之事物上，在不得以的狀況下才保留在標題上秀上外文。但是，「大型多人線上角色扮演遊戲」跟「MMORPG」這兩個用法的Google搜尋結果，我認為只能證明兩種譯法在中文環境都有很高的接受度，但並不能用搜尋數量多寡來判斷誰的「正統性」比較強，畢竟，前者是一個非常冗長的名稱，後者則是一個縮寫，縮寫的用途是用來代替過長的原名，因此它的使用機率高本來就是天經地義的現象，就好像「USA」這縮寫在Google搜尋裡有7.86億次的結果，比它的全名「United States of America」的2億次多了三倍有餘，但這並不能代表USA就比全名來得「廣為人們所接受」，這樣的現象我相信在英文教育較為普及的香港地區會比較明顯，是可以被理解的。不過，我對於您的陳述中「大型線上角色扮演遊戲這譯名在中國以外的地方，例如香港，則幾乎不會使用」的說法抱持懷疑的態度，因為在一些以香港為根據地、具有不小影響力的媒體網站上我仍然看到這中譯名稱的出現（參見新浪遊戲、iPress的報導），可見在香港還是有人知道這用法，只是碰巧您沒遇到而已，沒見過不代表不存在，這是做學問時應該抱持的良好態度，共勉之！至於「要知這是中文維基，不是中國維基」這句話，竟然是從一個中華人民共和國特區居民口中說出、用在一個從沒靠近過中國大陸半步的外人身上，我是覺得蠻諷刺又好笑的。只不過我們可以100%確定的是M、O、R、P、G這五個字母絕對不是中文，但這裡是中文維基，相信您應該不會不贊同我這兩個陳述才對吧？--泅水大象 訐譙☎ 14:43 2005年11月14日 (UTC)
- 很抱歉昨天沒有時間回應，也對沒有加上簽名作出道歉。細閱你給我的兩文篇後，想問問你一條問題：「中華人民共和國」和「中華民國」是否一樣呢？很抱歉我未能從該兩篇章中找到「大型多人線上角色扮演遊戲」這一句，只能找到「大型線上角色扮演遊戲」及「大型多人線上遊戲」這兩句。
- 我承認，有部分媒體在介紹一些MMORPG時都會用上中文來介紹該遊戲類型，但我昨天只是說「幾乎不會」，而不是「完全不會」。而且，那些媒體經常不小心將MMORPG的中文譯名中「大型」或「多人」刪去，而這個錯誤也發生在你身上。這只表示該中文譯名太過複雜了，也未能符合你所說的「廣為人們所接受」。
- 剛剛又找到兩個例子，PChome Online將MMORPG翻譯為「萬人線上角色扮演遊戲」，而著名MMORPG魔獸世界則將MMORPG翻譯為「大型多玩家線上角色扮演遊戲」。很明顯，MMORPG每個人的譯法都不同，「大型多人線上角色扮演遊戲」怎能稱得上「廣為人們所接受」呢？--黑米斯 10:18 2005年11月15日 (UTC)
- 基本上拿ACG那條目當範例來支持你的意見，並不是個好主意，因為該條目本身的命題就已經被提出來檢討並認為有所不妥。別的語版的作法是怎樣不該被拿來當作中文版該怎樣的佐證，畢竟各語版有各自的運作方式與基本文化背景，舉例來說，法文版從來就不准許使用英文縮寫當作條目名，為何我們非得遵從韓文跟日文版的作法，卻不考慮跟進法文版的運作方式？在中文版上存在非中文的名字，有時是不得已的作法，畢竟不是每件事物都可以找到事宜的譯名，所以只好在這種情況下保留外文。但是，MMORPG就我的觀點，並不覺得是因為翻譯不出來而非得保留原文的狀況，「原則」這種東西我認為是一種非不得已最好別隨便打破的事物，在中文維基上，「儘可能使用中文」可以說是第一重要的原則因此我很盡力在維護它，這跟啥中國維基與否根本沒關係。對於您這種無端就把問題泛政治化的扣帽子舉動，原本我是想以委婉的方式暗示您，最好別牽扯到那裡會比較禮貌點，不過既然您要繼續扯下去，那我就只好不客氣地明說，『中國怎樣是干我屁事了！我講中文，但我是台灣人，請把眼睛放亮點再開口！』不過，既然您一直強調香港人只看得懂英文條目名卻看不懂其中譯，這讓我想到最好的解決方法，就是利用繁簡轉換標籤顧及各地讀者的認知問題，這應該是個最不惹爭議的折衷之道。--泅水大象 訐譙☎ 10:37 2005年11月15日 (UTC)
- 現在我不是說香港人「只看得懂英文條目名卻看不懂其中譯」，我是說MMORPG的中文名不只每個地方譯法不同，就連每個人的譯法都不同，MMORPG條目中的中文譯名也不是我翻譯的。學術界中跟本沒有人對MMORPG的中文譯法達成共識！例如在台灣，有人可能認為「大型多人線上角色扮演遊戲」比較合適，但有人卻可能只認同如魔獸世界官方的譯法，即「大型多玩家線上角色扮演遊戲」。除非原文比中文翻譯在中文中更加常用，現在很明顯，MMORPG比起其中文譯名更能被人接受。除非維基的技術能照顧到每個人的不同翻譯方法，否則我強烈建議使用每個人的認知的MMORPG作為條目名稱！還有，是你拿媒體的文章當作學術問題討論的佐證，我才跟隨你用其他媒體的文章跟你討論。你這樣是否有點「自打嘴巴」呢？--黑米斯 11:01 2005年11月15日 (UTC)
- 還有，MMORPG的中文譯名最初都是由媒體自行翻譯的，故此本人不認為「大型多人線上角色扮演遊戲」適合在１維基這注重學術的網頁中使用!--黑米斯 11:37 2005年11月15日 (UTC)
- 請注意MMORPG不是「小孩子的玩意兒」，如果你能抽空看看剛才我推薦給你的那篇論文的第53頁就可發現，有30歲以上的人在玩MMORPG。而且據我所知，有很多MMORPG的開發者也是接近中年。--黑米斯 13:57 2005年11月15日 (UTC)
簽名
多謝提醒。今天出現問題的似乎不只我一個人，而且今天我也沒改簽名就出現這個問題了，可能是系統的一個蟲。別人也有類似情況，看這裡，smarteddy和用心閣的簽名都出現了問題。等待系統修復。--'''<font color=#99ccff>瀑布寒</font>''' [[User_talk:pubuhan|'''<font size=-1]] 13:55 2005年11月15日 (UTC)
- 看了一下其他人的簽名，發現果然如你所言，似乎是系統的問題，看來只能等何時這蟲兒被逮了。不過，這是不是維基媒體基金會在做小手腳，警告你們這些太「花俏」的傢伙，要不要考慮反璞歸真一點呀？（笑～）--泅水大象 訐譙☎ 13:59 2005年11月15日 (UTC)
- 先等等啦，哈哈。如果蟲子抓不住，也只好改掉了。--'''<font color=#99ccff>瀑布寒</font>''' [[User_talk:pubuhan|'''<font size=-1]] 14:03 2005年11月15日 (UTC)
承蒙提醒
多謝老兄提醒，是我不察之過，老兄言之有理。不過要確認兩地譯名落差確實太難，就比如老兄新建的普吉條目，在大陸這邊我們也是都稱之為普吉，說到布吉，往往卻是指深圳郊外的一個衛星城區，不知老兄因何有此印象大陸稱此島為布吉呢？ 金翅大鵬鳥(talk) 11:06 2005年11月16日 (UTC)
- 原來在大陸Phuket也是翻譯為普吉，之前沒查明，現在業已補正了。當初會這樣誤會的主因是我在線上搜尋到許多.cn的網頁稱該島為布吉，不過事後發現，原來這些網頁大都是因為抄襲香港網站的文章，所以沿用了香港的翻譯方式。關於繁簡譯名的落差要如何查證，其實也不用太擔心，您只要利用轉換標籤加添上您有把握的簡體譯版，繁體的部份不妨照舊使用原文作者的稱法，如果有錯，自然會有更清楚狀況的繁體用戶去修正的！--泅水大象 訐譙☎ 11:11 2005年11月16日 (UTC)
關於各國首都列表中「波」開頭國名的字音歸屬問題
唔...事實上我是在用新注音輸入法時，才發現了這個問題，並且把「波」開頭國名的項目移到「ㄆ」下面。最主要的考慮在於：這個列表是用注音作為檢索標準，所以個人還是覺得—歸類於正式的注音拼法開頭之下比較好...。--台灣少年 11:51 2005年11月17日 (UTC)
- 後來查了一下教育部國語辭典網站...的確都是拼成「ㄅㄛ」沒錯。接下來我會盡速更正...。--台灣少年 11:40 2005年11月17日 (UTC)
關於新條目推薦的模板
它的底色似有不妥，這個底色是那個常見於刪除通告的底色，給人的感覺不太好，也許該換作同行審訂的底色會較好。--孔明居士 01:59 2005年11月24日 (UTC)
- 其實設計模板時沒有多想，隨便找個看起來清爽的底色就用了。目前已經改成與UpdatedDYK模板同一色系但稍有不同的配色，希望如此能比較不造成誤會！--泅水大象 訐譙☎ 02:32 2005年11月24日 (UTC)
你好
雖然您反對我的推薦條目，但我還是很想認識您。如果您願意的話，請加我的msn：xhlmydcg@msn.com--Xhzyzdcg 12:13 2005年12月7日 (UTC)
關於唱片條目
謝謝你的提醒，我會考慮將它們編成一個條目。但不知道若完成以後，舊的唱片專輯條目該如何刪除呢？謝！--CY 11:06 2005年12月31日 (UTC)
- 了解了。以後還煩請您多多指教。--CY 12:07 2005年12月31日 (UTC)
- 已完成了，請您幫我刪除這分類裡的條目吧，謝！Category:陳綺貞音樂專輯 --CY 14:35 2005年12月31日 (UTC)
你知道嗎
大象兄，現在首頁上已顯示了兩條足球條目了，真的可以這樣嗎？疑惑 -0- --鄧啟昌 02:31 2006年1月1日 (UTC)